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Torpedo Rules

 
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USS Archerfish
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PostPosted: Fri 14 Apr - 04:59 (2017)    Post subject: Torpedo Rules Reply with quote

Why is it when the American attacks in a surface action the Japanese get to fire torpedos but Americans don't?  

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Bladerunner
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PostPosted: Mon 17 Apr - 07:25 (2017)    Post subject: Torpedo Rules Reply with quote

Only one side gets the advantages of a surprise attack with torpedoes
The Japanese have more chance to get it because of their tactics and their long range and excellent torpedoes
See the rules for more details


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USS Archerfish
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PostPosted: Tue 18 Apr - 00:57 (2017)    Post subject: Torpedo Rules Reply with quote

Yes, but the other side should be able to return fire but less effective because the loss of element of surprise.  At night though the Japanese should not have an advantage. It should be almost equal but I know the Japanese practice more for night fighting. 

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Bladerunner
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PostPosted: Tue 18 Apr - 07:28 (2017)    Post subject: Torpedo Rules Reply with quote

Could be indeed but when the torpedoe is detected it is easier to avoid it so far less effective
At night, torpedoes are far more difficult to detect.
Jaoanese torpedoes had a different propellant which make their wake much more seemless


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currymutton
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PostPosted: Mon 24 Apr - 04:05 (2017)    Post subject: Torpedo Rules Reply with quote

And again, both sides did that far too often during daylight... and when the IJN did this, especially in OpKe more often than not meaning no win for US.

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USS Archerfish
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PostPosted: Mon 24 Apr - 17:54 (2017)    Post subject: Torpedo Rules Reply with quote

Still I find torpedos from ships to be slightly overpowering. I'll have to do more research on that.

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Bladerunner
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PostPosted: Tue 25 Apr - 19:42 (2017)    Post subject: Torpedo Rules Reply with quote

So I will


- reduce the surprise benefit depending onto die-roll. Today this is black or white. We should intermediate results were a side can launch only a partial salvo or when the other may slightly fire back
- during daylight, less surprise and more chance to avoid torpedoes. Anyone heard about a daily torpedoes strike in the war ?


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USS Archerfish
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PostPosted: Tue 25 Apr - 20:10 (2017)    Post subject: Torpedo Rules Reply with quote

Thanks Bladerunner. 


Most of the day torpedo strike that I'm aware of were done by the Japanese but almost always done at long range just outside of range of US torpedos. I know some caught the US by surprise but I don't know what the ratio was. Also if memory serves me correct, surprise was achieved by destroyer squadrons not part of a TF.  The low profile of destroyers gennerally allowed them to get closer and with in torpedo range before being sighted.  If they were part of a TF with capital ships they were easily spotted.  Now if the US ships had radar this was significantly reduce. But even when detected by radar it was sometimes still difficult to identify them as destroyers or transports at long range.  A good radar operator could estimate speed.  If it was moving quickly, they were destroyers.  Weather also played a significant factor. 


There were also some cases of US engaging in day torpedo strikes as well.  Usually when destroyers were operating in small groups against subs or transport.  In a few fleet actions, torpedo strikes rarely sank any ships but usually forced the enemy force to break formations. 


I'll do some research and see what I can find. 


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currymutton
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PostPosted: Wed 26 Apr - 03:05 (2017)    Post subject: Torpedo Rules Reply with quote

Watching the Norwegian campaign video on YouTube lately. Yes, there were surprises during the campaign, but the engagements consisted of a few ships most of the time. I have little idea if torpedo surprise of the size CB4G is possible, though BR once mentioned that naval battle of Guadalcanal in Nov 1942 was a good example of TF-size engagement with torpedo surprise

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USS Archerfish
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PostPosted: Wed 26 Apr - 05:42 (2017)    Post subject: Torpedo Rules Reply with quote

currymutton wrote:
Watching the Norwegian campaign video on YouTube lately. Yes, there were surprises during the campaign, but the engagements consisted of a few ships most of the time. I have little idea if torpedo surprise of the size CB4G is possible, though BR once mentioned that naval battle of Guadalcanal in Nov 1942 was a good example of TF-size engagement with torpedo surprise


Any links for this?  I'd like to read it.


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Bladerunner
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PostPosted: Wed 26 Apr - 12:52 (2017)    Post subject: Torpedo Rules Reply with quote

For the moment I am not sure to change anything when a small amount of ships are involved
The Japanese torpedo were really powerful and balancing the superior US gunfire

The IJN used torpedoes to fire during the day (Java)
The hit ratio was small (10 to 20%) bit they were firing more torpedoes than in the game
All DD and CA were firing and possibly al their torpedoes

The only complain could be the first strike effects. This could be too strong in large battle involving 20 ships of each side

An intersting article related the surface combat in the Solomon
http://fireonthewaters.tripod.com/DOCTRINE ARTICLE.pdf


May be torpedo and gunfire should not be treated separately ?
May be the surprise should allow a limited number of ships to make a pre-emptive strike before the opponent can return fire  ?


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currymutton
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PostPosted: Thu 27 Apr - 02:51 (2017)    Post subject: Torpedo Rules Reply with quote

Better say: watch it:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gHJqtI3AzkQ
USS Archerfish wrote:

currymutton wrote:
Watching the Norwegian campaign video on YouTube lately. Yes, there were surprises during the campaign, but the engagements consisted of a few ships most of the time. I have little idea if torpedo surprise of the size CB4G is possible, though BR once mentioned that naval battle of Guadalcanal in Nov 1942 was a good example of TF-size engagement with torpedo surprise



Any links for this?  I'd like to read it.


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currymutton
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PostPosted: Thu 27 Apr - 07:32 (2017)    Post subject: Torpedo Rules Reply with quote

Excellent read. Actually the essay mentions engagements more than just in 1942, but also earlier and later engagements as well.

A few notes:

1. No mention of IJN ships other than DD did surprise torpedo first strike
2. Torpedoes were used in regular engagements by both sides, but USN did it far less in 1942 due to doctrine and inferior weapon
3. Lack of proper C3I was disastrous to both sides
4. Surprise was not entirely random, it was more about C3I
5. US float plane was a very powerful weapon, against its own side.
Bladerunner wrote:



An intersting article related the surface combat in the Solomon
http://fireonthewaters.tripod.com/DOCTRINE ARTICLE.pdf


May be torpedo and gunfire should not be treated separately ?
May be the surprise should allow a limited number of ships to make a pre-emptive strike before the opponent can return fire 





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USS Archerfish
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PostPosted: Thu 27 Apr - 16:43 (2017)    Post subject: Torpedo Rules Reply with quote

Cyril


You should make a new section in the forum called "WW2 History".  Everyone can place all their historical links there.


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PostPosted: Today at 04:35 (2017)    Post subject: Torpedo Rules

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