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Please explain...air to ship combat resolution

 
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currymutton
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PostPosted: Tue 31 May - 01:57 (2016)    Post subject: Please explain...air to ship combat resolution Reply with quote

Something bug me a lot is some Japanese ships are extra-ordinary hard.

Take this TRS as an example (from Bismark Sea)


It took me 4 torpedoes and 9 bombs to sink it.

And Akagi survived a sum of 1 torpedo and 9 bombs hits with 3 life points left!


Talking about excellent Japanese technology here. Very Happy

On the other hand, the US carriers are much more "friendlier" to bombs, about 2 to 3 bombs seems to be enough to make short work of them... I am not sure, may be the mileage varies due to critical damage, and I read that damage control was worse for the Japanese and I am not sure if this is modeled.

It is very frustrating, the Japanese carriers can take a lot damages (even more than once they have plane arming on deck during the attack) than a BB : I hit Hlei with 5 bombs and turning it into a very slow ship, no turrets, left only 1 light AA.

So I have a question on the mechanism of sinking a ship. It is especially important to me as I tell people that "sinking other people's ships is my favorite past time"

I think luck has something to do here or how the bombs damages are being handled.

I read the Damage and Repair section, I notice the gun hit has similar effect as bomb hit, except it does not damage the flight deck (omission?) but my CV never stands a chance before enemy gunfire and usually sinks within the first round...

BTW, I really see an occasion that a ship is sunk due to arsenal explosion. Fireworks!


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Bladerunner
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PostPosted: Tue 31 May - 14:16 (2016)    Post subject: Please explain...air to ship combat resolution Reply with quote

In fact, to sink a ship you must make water enter it
This is what doing a torpedo and the game makes a ship losing one life point reflecting the loss of buoyancy

Now a bomb is basically doing damage by exploding but lets merely air enter the ship which a big difference
On the other hands, they are able to wreck enemy flight decks

The Japanese were caught pants off at Midway with hangar planes full of fuel and ammunition causing chain reaction
The same occurred to the CV Franklin in the middle of an air strike preparation. A lone Japanese bomber dropped a small bomb exploding in the hangar and setting aflame all planes on the deck an din the hangar.
Only the armored hangar deck prevented planes bombs to detonate in the bottom of the ship. The ship survived but 900 deads

At Coral Sea or other battles in 42, Japanese CV took punishment and were not able to operate aircraft afterwards. However, the buoyancy was preserved
Lexington, Wasp , Hornet and Yorktown all sunk due to enemy torpedoes not bomb hits

So I think you were missing a bit of luck by not achieving critical hits on the enemy deck
too bad the TBF torpedo were not at the level of the B5N

I hope it helps


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currymutton
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PostPosted: Wed 1 Jun - 02:31 (2016)    Post subject: Please explain...air to ship combat resolution Reply with quote

Thank you for taking time to respond.

I am sorry if I begin to feel like ranting.

I think about it again and again after posting this. US torpedo during year 1942 sucked, in both quality and quantity, is the main reason why torpedo hit is rare and difficult to obtain. IJN was just the reverse.

But after a number of bomb runs against BB and CA, I think there are a few points which may improve the bomb/shell damage on CV.

Argument number one is CV is a huge but thinly armored carrying a whole lot more explosive goods. Giving enough hits with bombs and shells should have more adverse effect on CV than BB and CA.

The fact is in this game bomb and shell hits do not deduct life points directly. But rather it induces one critical damage. To reduce life point causing a CV to sink, regardless of subclass, one needs:

major fire,
scuttled due to uncontrolled fire (sink direct I suppose)
avgas explosion,
ammunition explosion,
torpedo explosion,
structural damage,
flooding not controlled (head straight to ocean floor)

For non-CV, we have:
major fire,
scuttled due to uncontrolled fire (sink direct I suppose)
ammunition explosion,
torpedo explosion,
structural damage,
flooding not controlled (head straight to ocean floor)

However, one: may be I have not played enough but I have never seen a "major fire" on a CV (but I have seen a couple of times CA go ablaze by bomb hits), let alone the more horrible "scuttled due to uncontrolled fire", even if there are 2 or more arming planes on deck. I cannot tell if the fire is put out within the turn, or it does not simply happen at all.

Two: for non-CV ships, the list of critical damage is a bit fewer (16 vs 19). I am not sure about the mechanism, but if non-CV gets a bomb hit, and the game only checks from a list of critical damages, it is more likely that a non-CV get life point reduced, which does not agree with my understanding that a CV is a big target with paper protection...

Another thing I would like to point out that, it is very possible the effect of penetration by bomb and shell is not taken into account. I note that one or two critical damage lead to further possible critical damages. But when an AP bomb or AP shell damage or destroy the flight deck, it could mean the bomb or shell goes through the deck (which is very thin armored) and exploded below, causing damage other systems inside: and this was what happened to Hiryu, when a bomb went through the deck and set the hanger bay below into an inferno. Hiryu, as you already know, was scuttled later due to uncontrolled fire. This gives me the idea that damaging/destroying the flight deck should trigger further possible critical hit(s).

So, to sum up, I am wondering:

1. Is the current model too tough for bomb and shell user? It should be noted that the latter is largely made up by sheer quantities in a round

2. Is major fire too easy to be put out, especially during the situation where planes are being armed on deck?

3. Is the current way to handle the effect of critical hit makes CV actually less vulnerable?

4. And the most important of all: should the possibility of getting critical hit determined by the armor value (which is absent here) rather than the damage control team rating?

Thank you again for reading this long post. I want to make sure that you understand I am not asking to reproduce "historical accurate" battles here in the sense that I hit 3 bombs on a CV and expect it to sink as  whatever happened before. But I want a bit more accurate portrait of the results, even though I am fully aware there is a lot of luck/bad luck involved.

Keep up the good work!

BTW, Akagi breaks the record yesterday by absorbing 1 torpedo and 13 bomb hits but still manage to stay afloat...


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Bladerunner
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PostPosted: Wed 1 Jun - 09:13 (2016)    Post subject: Please explain...air to ship combat resolution Reply with quote

Very long post indeed, I need to swallow it first Very Happy
What I can say now is the system does not take into account the accumulation of hits. Even if doing minor damage repeated bomb hits will soon or later cause major damage


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currymutton
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PostPosted: Wed 1 Jun - 10:00 (2016)    Post subject: Please explain...air to ship combat resolution Reply with quote

I am sorry that I add quite amount of workload upon you.

Accumulation of damage is a good point, but I see critical hit reflects a bit in this part of the picture, permanent loss of certain function like destroyed flight deck renders a CV useless.

My points are, simply, the bomb is very ineffective in ship sinking, but it does an okay job sending CV back to the dock.

Let's simplify things a bit: it carries up to 2,250 pounds of bombs and let's say only one 1,000 pound one hit, which carries 50 pound of explosive (just find info this site: http://www.pwencycl.kgbudge.com/B/o/Bombs.htm) and when compared the US 12"/50 gun round is about 1140 pounds (http://www.pwencycl.kgbudge.com/U/s/US_12_50_Mk8_gun.htm), so I guess a 1000 pound bomb is like hit but a 10" or 11" gun, which is not a fun thing to small ships.

Second point is: according to Tom Clancy, fire is the worst enemy to any vessel, but the CV here, carrying so many more inflammable stuff, seems quite rarely/never catches fire  after bombing (I just lit up another CA with aerial bomb during my preparation of the Midway AAR).


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Bladerunner
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PostPosted: Sun 5 Jun - 14:53 (2016)    Post subject: Please explain...air to ship combat resolution Reply with quote

Hi Currymulton,


I am traveling today and I will try to answer you by small chunks  Very Happy


1) you post raises the question and this is a possibility that the current model is not putting enough emphasize with bomb damage
Looking at the history, most of the CV have been dunked by torpedo or by bond triggering major fires thanks to enemy avgas and ammunition, Hiryu being the exception a put a flames by 4 bombs while no planes were being prepared for a strike (were the planes empty of fuel ?)




2) no usually a major fire dooms the ship
Akagi has a 9% chance to survive, Enterprise 16%, a Japanese CL 1%



3) I haven't exposed the critical hit table, may be I should show it to you later
Each class has its weak points
Surface ships could explode if a shell or bomb hits an ammo depot
Carriers avgas or bomb/torpedoed could trigger a major fire 






4) BB and CA have a better armor than other ships. This is reflected by a better damage control and life points for the same tonnage


Enough for now
I would happy to improve the damage system with your help anyway !

Thanks 


Quote:
 So, to sum up, I am wondering:
1. Is the current model too tough for bomb and shell user? It should be noted that the latter is largely made up by sheer quantities in a round
2. Is major fire too easy to be put out, especially during the situation where planes are being armed on deck?

3. Is the current way to handle the effect of critical hit makes CV actually less vulnerable?

4. And the most important of all: should the possibility of getting critical hit determined by the armor valu e (which is absent here ) rather than the damage control team rating ?








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currymutton
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PostPosted: Mon 6 Jun - 06:59 (2016)    Post subject: Please explain...air to ship combat resolution Reply with quote

Thanks for taking time to read and reply

1. I suppose air fuel, kerosene(?), is not placed lying. I have no professional knowledge but I think like ammo, they are stored behind some really thick walls with fire-fighting tools nearby. AFAIK, bomb hit in CB4G is treated like shell hit, but the later is done is a much higher concentration so it is more likely to sink by shell than by bomb.

2. The problem is major fire is never seen on a CV, but I saw avgas explosion twice though, even if there are 2+ planes on deck arming

3. I once sink a BB suffering from 4 ammo explosion, I wonder if it is 4 separate occasion, or there are 4 arsenals on that ship.

4. I need to compile a table on ship's parameters to cross reference. From experience with CB4G, it seems that sinking a BB is easier than a CV. We all know both are of more or less the same hull, but the latter has thinner deck armor.

I feel honored to have a little contributions. After playing Coral Sea and Santa Cruz, my first problem to crack now is how to avoid my CV from saturation attack. Any attack with 15+ Japanese bombers spells doom to me

Bladerunner wrote:



Hi Currymulton,


I am traveling today and I will try to answer you by small chunks  Very Happy


1) you post raises the question and this is a possibility that the current model is not putting enough emphasize with bomb damage
Looking at the history, most of the CV have been dunked by torpedo or by bond triggering major fires thanks to enemy avgas and ammunition, Hiryu being the exception a put a flames by 4 bombs while no planes were being prepared for a strike (were the planes empty of fuel ?)




2) no usually a major fire dooms the ship
Akagi has a 9% chance to survive, Enterprise 16%, a Japanese CL 1%



3) I haven't exposed the critical hit table, may be I should show it to you later
Each class has its weak points
Surface ships could explode if a shell or bomb hits an ammo depot
Carriers avgas or bomb/torpedoed could trigger a major fire 






4) BB and CA have a better armor than other ships. This is reflected by a better damage control and life points for the same tonnage


Enough for now
I would happy to improve the damage system with your help anyway !

Thanks 


Quote:



 So, to sum up, I am wondering:
1. Is the current model too tough for bomb and shell user? It should be noted that the latter is largely made up by sheer quantities in a round
2. Is major fire too easy to be put out, especially during the situation where planes are being armed on deck?

3. Is the current way to handle the effect of critical hit makes CV actually less vulnerable?

4. And the most important of all: should the possibility of getting critical hit determined by the armor valu e (which is absent here ) rather than the damage control team rating ?














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PostPosted: Today at 04:32 (2017)    Post subject: Please explain...air to ship combat resolution

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