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Bladerunner
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PostPosted: Tue 15 Aug - 17:13 (2017)    Post subject: Search improvement Reply with quote

2 things which could be added


1. Slow search
Today, air units are searching within an arc which increases by 2 hexes per phase and the endurance is the same as a bombing mission


In addition to selecting the arc and the max distance, one could also choice between fast and slow search pace



In slow mode, the arc increases by 1 hex a phase and the endurance of the units is increased 


2. Fighters
Fighter pilots should be disadvantaged vs bombers because the pilot is alone. He has to concentrate on flying and look around for ships
Hence, fighters could count only for 1/2 air unit


Any thought ?


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USS Archerfish
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PostPosted: Fri 18 Aug - 08:28 (2017)    Post subject: Search improvement Reply with quote

Sounds reasonable. It would also cut down on the IJN huge advantage using the Zero as a scout plane. 

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larsenjp
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PostPosted: Mon 21 Aug - 10:31 (2017)    Post subject: Search improvement Reply with quote

Cyril,

Item 2, search by fighters, sounds quite unhistorical to me for the reasons you give; exploration was a very special duty and needed dedicated crews and planes especially for managing the problem of navigation.
I don't know if the USN ever used fighters for searches but I am pretty sure the IJN did not. Indeed, A6M generally did not have radio device (except maybe the leaders); they just could not have reported any sighting before getting back to the carrier...
So my opinion is that it should be allowed for USN (even if i do not really see the benefit but this is up to the player to make decision) but not for IJN.


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Bladerunner
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PostPosted: Mon 21 Aug - 16:50 (2017)    Post subject: Search improvement Reply with quote

Welcome   Very Happy


I have to make some research on that
May be also the main reason not to use fighters is that they were already some scout planes and fighters were the best tool to defend the fleet


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currymutton
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PostPosted: Tue 22 Aug - 02:33 (2017)    Post subject: Search improvement Reply with quote

(Just back from vacation)

I concur that fighters should not be allowed to do search, radio aside, navigation by a sole pilot is kinda nightmare over a grand piece of water in the pre-GPS age.


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USS Archerfish
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PostPosted: Tue 22 Aug - 08:15 (2017)    Post subject: Search improvement Reply with quote

I tend to agree with Larsenjn. Mostly from what I know, fighters were rarely used for scouting.  Most scouting was done by dedicated scout aircraft (primarily sea planes) or by bombers.  


As for CV task force, dive bombers were the primary scout planes for the US.  The IJN in the beginning actually relied more on scout planes from BB and CA than they did on planes from the CVs. This is why so many IJN CAs had scout planes. 


I think for game play, it would be better if fighters were not allowed to be used for scouting. This would be historically accurate. It would also create a more level playing field but the Japanese would still have a slight advantage, which is still historically accurate. 


However, some minor adjustments may be needed. For example, Eastern Solomons, the US may need some additional aircraft for scouting or by giving them a dedicated scout planes search. Perhaps giving Henderson PBYs.  Just a thought. 


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larsenjp
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PostPosted: Tue 22 Aug - 10:39 (2017)    Post subject: Search improvement Reply with quote

Totally agree with the previous comments.


US carriers had dedicated squadrons (the VS) flying SBD dive bombers; but of course, the pilots could also perform dive bombing attacks. The same for the pilots of the bombing squadrons (BV) who could also perform scouting missions. The floatplanes aboard the US cruisers where not really used for scouting because they had a too small range.


For the IJN, scouting was mainly made by cruisers seaplanes but also from times to times by B5N Kates because the latter where faster.


Both were heavily relying on land-based seaplanes (PBYs for USN, H6Ks and H8Ks for IJN).


So for gameplay, as Archerfish said, i think the best and easiest solution would be not to allow fighters units to perform searches.
And thinking to add control on the searches made by land-based seaplanes and cruisers-based seaplanes (the latter especially when it will be possible to play the IJN side).


 


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currymutton
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PostPosted: Tue 22 Aug - 11:28 (2017)    Post subject: Search improvement Reply with quote

Currently

1. Dive bombers used in performing searches cannot be used in attaks, but there was talk about allowing dual mission some time ago

2. Sea planes launched from cap ships are auto, uncontrollable by player. They have full 360 degree but are very limited in search range

3. Land based search planes are also there, longer in range but operation is identical to sea planes


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larsenjp
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PostPosted: Tue 22 Aug - 17:36 (2017)    Post subject: Search improvement Reply with quote

From your points: 

1. Yes I saw this. I also saw a proposal about making some "armed reconnaissance" mission i.e. sending planes towards a zone where you think there may be an enemy TF that has not been spotted yet; if the planes find the TF, they may attack; otherwise they come back to their base. Both of these ideas sound very good to me.


2. Yes, i am aware of it; i was just saying that for the Japanese side, this kind of planes were very important for the searches as stated by Archerfish; so i think they should be under the control of the player whenever the Japanese side will be playable. For the US side, i think the current simple solution is OK.


3. Yes and i already used this capability. But actually I was talking about big "land-based" seaplanes like Catalinas on the Allied side or Mavis/Emily on the Japanese side. To date, i have only played the "Coral Sea" scenario and i did not see any PBY. From the rules, I think theses seaplanes are managed the same way than cruisers seaplanes that is directly by the AI. Maybe Cyril will confirm?
If it is the case, i really would like to have control on them to improve search patterns; as searching and finding the enemy is the core of the game, i think it would be worth the effort. Furthermore, PBY also had some interesting anti-shipping capabilities (remember Midway and later the famed "Black Cats")....


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Bladerunner
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PostPosted: Tue 22 Aug - 20:17 (2017)    Post subject: Search improvement Reply with quote

So, nice constructive comments

OK, no fighter allowed to search


Regarding the control over seaplanes, this si a big change as it requires to display seaplane bases on map and in details. Also difficult for the AI to use a good search pattern. such bases could be attacked
For the moment everything is computer-controlled and 360°C


Armes reco, why not later


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larsenjp
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PostPosted: Tue 22 Aug - 21:58 (2017)    Post subject: Search improvement Reply with quote

Cyril,


Thanks for the answer, i cannot figure out the work behind but i guess it would not be straightforward.


As for the search pattern, maybe a simple solution would be at first to decrease the default 360° search pattern down to a 120°, or 180°, or 240° patter, depending on the base location (and assuming the searches are made only towards the general enemy direction and over the sea).


Anyway, it is already great!  


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USS Archerfish
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PostPosted: Tue 22 Aug - 22:24 (2017)    Post subject: Search improvement Reply with quote

larsenjp wrote:
Cyril,


Thanks for the answer, i cannot figure out the work behind but i guess it would not be straightforward.


As for the search pattern, maybe a simple solution would be at first to decrease the default 360° search pattern down to a 120°, or 180°, or 240° patter, depending on the base location (and assuming the searches are made only towards the general enemy direction and over the sea).


Anyway, it is already great!  


In order to do that I think Cyril would have to manually program each airfield search pattern for each scenario. 


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Bladerunner
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PostPosted: Tue 22 Aug - 22:35 (2017)    Post subject: Search improvement Reply with quote

Indeed, seaplane bases could use a smaller search angle
This is another story for surface forces as the general direction of the enemy is not always easy to determine


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USS Archerfish
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PostPosted: Wed 23 Aug - 00:54 (2017)    Post subject: Search improvement Reply with quote

Bladerunner wrote:
Indeed, seaplane bases could use a smaller search angle
This is another story for surface forces as the general direction of the enemy is not always easy to determine



I was thinking the same thing. For surface ship I think it would be too difficult to program directional search. A 360 would be best. 


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larsenjp
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PostPosted: Wed 23 Aug - 13:22 (2017)    Post subject: Search improvement Reply with quote

USS Archerfish wrote:

Bladerunner wrote:

Indeed, seaplane bases could use a smaller search angle
This is another story for surface forces as the general direction of the enemy is not always easy to determine





I was thinking the same thing. For surface ship I think it would be too difficult to program directional search. A 360 would be best. 

Totally agree with this.
Best solution would be indeed to adapt search pattern to current information but i guess it would be quite difficult to implement. While reducing the search pattern for seabase planes should be feasible; and i think it would be quite realistic since they often had daily routine search patterns. 


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PostPosted: Today at 08:29 (2017)    Post subject: Search improvement

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