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currymutton
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PostPosted: Fri 6 Oct - 05:27 (2017)    Post subject: CB Wish List. Reply with quote

Hats off!

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PostPosted: Fri 6 Oct - 05:27 (2017)    Post subject: Publicité

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USS Archerfish
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PostPosted: Fri 6 Oct - 13:25 (2017)    Post subject: CB Wish List. Reply with quote

But if you want to give it the final touch you can add a tail hook.  Smile   But I'm happy with the graphics as is. 

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currymutton
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PostPosted: Mon 9 Oct - 03:13 (2017)    Post subject: CB Wish List. Reply with quote

Okay, icon added, looks good, but I am not sure what to do with them -- I cannot redirect them to other TF/base using this icon. I hope it will be added later.

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USS Archerfish
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PostPosted: Mon 9 Oct - 06:07 (2017)    Post subject: CB Wish List. Reply with quote

Oooooh! Landing airplanes look so purdy! (Southern slang for pretty)

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USS Archerfish
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PostPosted: Mon 9 Oct - 06:16 (2017)    Post subject: CB Wish List. Reply with quote

currymutton wrote:
Okay, icon added, looks good, but I am not sure what to do with them -- I cannot redirect them to other TF/base using this icon. I hope it will be added later.


Curry

If I want to redirect landing aircraft to a new TF/base, I open the Air Op page, hen I drag the  lading aircraft on the left into the Strike Box and the select a new TF/base destination for them. 


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Bladerunner
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PostPosted: Mon 9 Oct - 14:29 (2017)    Post subject: CB Wish List. Reply with quote

Indeed, I have kept it simple here. Just allowed the switch to delay the landing

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SBD


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PostPosted: Sat 28 Oct - 11:55 (2017)    Post subject: Flight recall Reply with quote

I suggest there should be no flight recall for carrier based planes.
A recall is message from carrier to plane.
Such communication would reveal the position of the carrier.
Radio silence was almost absolute and very important.


A scout would not continue if running out of fuel, so its recall should be automatic i.e. Computer generated 
An attacker has been ordered by the admiral, who has weighed the losses of crew and aircraft, against the potential benefits of sinking a carrier, therefore attacks should continue if the target is in range on the outward journey.


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larsenjp
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PostPosted: Sat 28 Oct - 13:43 (2017)    Post subject: CB Wish List. Reply with quote

SBD wrote:
I suggest there should be no flight recall for carrier based planes.
A recall is message from carrier to plane.
Such communication would reveal the position of the carrier.
Radio silence was almost absolute and very important.


A scout would not continue if running out of fuel, so its recall should be automatic i.e. Computer generated 
An attacker has been ordered by the admiral, who has weighed the losses of crew and aircraft, against the potential benefits of sinking a carrier, therefore attacks should continue if the target is in range on the outward journey.


Yes but in the battle of Coral Sea, on the 7th of May 1942, the US launched a strike against the Japanese carriers previously spotted by one carrier based scout. Actually it was a mistake as the US staff realized when the US scout pilot reported back upon return. However, in the meantime, scouts from Port Moresby had spotted the Japanese and the information was passed on to Fletcher's staff who decided to radio a message to the strike's planes with new position. It seems that the message was even sent in clear... US planes finally found the Shoho and sank her. It seems there was no real consequence for TF17; it had been already spotted by the Japanese cruisers-based seaplanes but there were problems of communication and misunderstanding between the various Japanese staffs involved in the operation and the battle between the US and Japanese fleet carriers occurred only the day after.

Personally, i should authorize recalling a carrier strike or changing target but than there should be a chance for the TF to be located, maybe not instantaneously. I think the information should be given with some delay (let's say 1 or maybe 2 hours).
At this point using plotting markers as suggested by Archerfish in an other thread should be very interesting.


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USS Archerfish
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PostPosted: Sat 28 Oct - 18:45 (2017)    Post subject: CB Wish List. Reply with quote

SBD


I have no problem with your idea of having the computer having an airplane return if it is low on fuel only under the following conditions.


1. A pop-up alert warning that an aircraft is low on fuel.
2. The player is given a choice to recall the plane or allow it to continue on its mission.
3. If a plane/s is/are recalled, ONLY those planes low on fuel return and NOT the entire strike force.


Larsenjp


I also like your idea that if you do use a change of target or recall that it can increase your chances of being detected. 


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SBD


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PostPosted: Sat 28 Oct - 20:10 (2017)    Post subject: CB Wish List. Reply with quote

Thank you larsenjp and Archerfish for your comments.


Yes Fletcher did communicate en clair per Lundstrum in Black Shoe Admiral quoting Ludlum.
Records are annoyingly absent about the IJN monitoring of this.
I think the exception proves the rule, as I can recalll no other instance in '42?


However there is a significant difference between recall and divert (larsenjp's example)
When he diverted, Fletcher took the risk of being located against the gain of hitting a target with a large force.
Recall - see below.


I am trying to make suggests that enhances the game enjoyment, has a reasonable historical basis, and is readily codeable by Cyril.
So I agree with 1 and 3 of Archerfish's comments, and not necessarily 2 for the following reasons.


The automatic (NO CHOICE and computer based) recall of a low fuel SCOUT plane, not flight, removes micro-management, reflects real life as there would be zero benefit in continuing, and is not horrendous to code....Er correct?


The above criteria also applies to ATTACK planes IF they will run out of fuel BEFORE they reach their target.


I can't recall an instance in 1942 where attack planes were recalled once they were ordered out. The admiral knew the fuel risks and took them, as he wanted to hit the target. He did not have any hindsight or backup. 


That is why I love this period, Fletcher and Hara were deprived of much information, and when they got something in they had to make an instant judgment on the briefest of reports. If they got it wrong, a tanker or small carrier with a large strike force....tough, there was no going back once they made the order.
Seems reasonable to put that feel in the game?


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larsenjp
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PostPosted: Sat 28 Oct - 21:46 (2017)    Post subject: CB Wish List. Reply with quote

Yes, the example i gave is most probably unique but it does exist so why not?
As for the Japanese, they often sent recon planes to guide their own strike force. That is they knew more or less where the enemy was and send some scouts in order to find them and radio directly the location to the strike force. They did it especially with their land-based attack planes (Bettys and Nells). But of course this is different from radioing new instructions from a carrier.

Regarding not recalling a strike, i am not against the idea. However recalling a strike is actually a tremendous waste of time. Considering the time needed to get back to the carrier, land and then possibly launching a new strike... most probably players will have the same reaction than Fletcher and Hara... Personally i think i never recalled a strike so far but i already tried (and succeeded) to change the target several times because my understanding of the situation changed.

Regarding management of scout planes, i think it is already done. I mean that if you plan some recon using SBDs and define a range of 20 hexes, i think they won't do it. They will go up to their maximum range and automatically get back. Actually that's what i experienced so far.

Finally, regarding fog of war and decision making in uncertain context, i think CBfG is the game for it. I think it gives some feeling about what it was to be a carrier TF commander in 1942.


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USS Archerfish
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PostPosted: Sat 28 Oct - 22:22 (2017)    Post subject: CB Wish List. Reply with quote

SBD


I feel Option 2: The player should have a choice to recall or not a individual plane if low on fuel. There are plenty historical  examples of pilots ignoring low fuel to fight off enemy planes or proceed with an attack. 


But due to game mechanics I feel strongly that there needs to be a recall feature for individual aircraft low on fuel. When launching aircraft, players rely on the information chart to make sure that their planes have enough fuel to strike a target and return safely. However there are several factors that can change this. 


The first one is weather. The game gives pretty good warning of possible fuel issue due to weather. However, weather can change during flight which can reduce fuel even more. So I have had cases where the Strike Information Chart showed I had enough fuel for the strike.  But half way to the target weather developed and I was suddenly low on fuel. 


The second one is due to launch capacity. This commonly happens with carrier launches. A player launches an attack at the edge of the planes fuel limits. The Strike Information Chart shows there is enough fuel. But the problem is the game AI doesn't account for large strikes. 
Example: A player has a full deck of 22 planes on the Saratoga. He decides to attack a IJN TF from the 7 hexes away. He launches 4 F4F, 9 SBD and 5 TBF.
F4F 15 fuel
SBD 15 fuel
TBF 18 fuel
First wave of 6 planes are launched, 5 and 1 SBD launches. First wave now has SBD 14 fuel & TBF 17
Second wave of 6 planes launched. 8 SBD now at 14 fuel. First wave now at SBD 13 fuel, TBF 16
Third wave 4 F4F. All aircraft are now airborne. 
Fuel state is now as follows.
First wave, SBD 12 fuel & TBF 15
Second wave, SBD 13 fuel
Third wave, F4F 14 fuel
So the target is 7 hexes away but now all the SBD do not have enough fuel for the Strike. 


Many new players and even veteran players sometimes forget that when launching large attacks the first and second wave are expending fuel circling above the CV or airfield waiting for the remaining aircraft to launch. The game Information Chart doesn't calculate fuel expenditures for Alpha Strikes (One giant airstrike instead of several waves). So when players launch one big airstrike at long range, the information leads them to believed they have enough fuel for the strike when in reality they don't. Weather along the route complicates this even more. This is the main reason I want to be able to recall individual aircraft that are low on fuel. If I have a large Strike of 16 planes and suddenly 4 are low on fuel, I rather recall just the 4 planes instead of recalling the entire strike. 


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larsenjp
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PostPosted: Sat 28 Oct - 23:10 (2017)    Post subject: CB Wish List. Reply with quote

Yes, you point out a very relevant concern.
I think this is also part of decision making, between launching a massive airstrike and losing time and fuel while the planes take off and regroup but being more efficient on target and launching several smaller strikes saving time and fuel but being less efficient on target.
The point is that it is true that the game do not provide much information in the first case so it is difficult to be really aware of the stakes.


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USS Archerfish
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PostPosted: Sun 29 Oct - 02:42 (2017)    Post subject: CB Wish List. Reply with quote

Yes new players will suffer the most from this.  Veterans generally know better but can still be caught off guard by variables that suddenly appear. My suggestion for allowing players to recall individual aircraft for lack of fuel is to make up for the lack of and inaccurate intelligence provided by the game AI. 


That is the other reason I suggested in another post that an airfield and CV max Launch and recover of aircraft be posted on the Air Ops page. 


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USS Archerfish
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PostPosted: Sun 29 Oct - 02:45 (2017)    Post subject: CB Wish List. Reply with quote

USS Archerfish wrote:


Example: A player has a full deck of 22 planes on the Saratoga. He decides to attack a IJN TF from the 7 hexes away. He launches 4 F4F, 9 SBD and 5 TBF.
F4F 15 fuel
SBD 15 fuel
TBF 18 fuel
First wave of 6 planes are launched, 5 and 1 SBD launches. First wave now has SBD 14 fuel & TBF 17
Second wave of 6 planes launched. 8 SBD now at 14 fuel. First wave now at SBD 13 fuel, TBF 16
Third wave 4 F4F. All aircraft are now airborne. 
Fuel state is now as follows.
First wave, SBD 12 fuel & TBF 15
Second wave, SBD 13 fuel
Third wave, F4F 14 fuel
So the target is 7 hexes away but now all the SBD do not have enough fuel for the Strike. 


Many new players and even veteran players sometimes forget that when launching large attacks the first and second wave are expending fuel circling above the CV or airfield waiting for the remaining aircraft to launch. The game Information Chart doesn't calculate fuel expenditures for Alpha Strikes (One giant airstrike instead of several waves). So when players launch one big airstrike at long range, the information leads them to believed they have enough fuel for the strike when in reality they don't. Weather along the route complicates this even more. This is the main reason I want to be able to recall individual aircraft that are low on fuel. If I have a large Strike of 16 planes and suddenly 4 are low on fuel, I rather recall just the 4 planes instead of recalling the entire strike. 


I meant to add that a veteran player will recognize this problem and launch in 2 or 3 separate waves to avoid this problem. 


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