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Radio silence
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Bladerunner
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PostPosted: Tue 31 Oct - 21:21 (2017)    Post subject: Radio silence Reply with quote

This post follows an idea from player SBD


There are several occasion in the game where radio communication is used from the fleet to airstrikes


- recall an airstrike
- changing the target of an airstrike
- updating the target position of an airstrike following a successful search
  (this could come from the scout airplanes but also from nearby land and carrier bases) 


The foe may listen to the radio message and determine its direction. with Two enemy stations listening, the location fo the source is determined by the intersection of the two directions
Ex here : http://www.researcheratlarge.com/Pacific/RDF/


I have found an example of the Japanese CV fleet being located in the Battle of the Marianna by a radio communication
For land-air-bases, this si not important as their location is well-known


I am proposing a simple rule to reflect this
Quote:
If the radio silence is broken, the task force has 50% chance of being located (without info on its composition)



A settings at the TF level will enforce radio silence or not. If on, then the TF cannot be used at radio relay to send the last known position of the target to airstrikes


Not sure if the radio silence may have an impact on friendly airstrike to find their way back home


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PostPosted: Tue 31 Oct - 21:21 (2017)    Post subject: Publicité

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USS Archerfish
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PostPosted: Thu 2 Nov - 08:49 (2017)    Post subject: Radio silence Reply with quote

If this is to be added I would make it an option. 


But 50% chance of detection if you use radio is pretty high. I wouldn't want to play at that level. 


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Bladerunner
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PostPosted: Thu 2 Nov - 11:18 (2017)    Post subject: Radio silence Reply with quote

Difficult to pick a real value as  Have found any data here

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larsenjp
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PostPosted: Thu 2 Nov - 14:15 (2017)    Post subject: Radio silence Reply with quote

Yes, i agree, quite high, maybe 30%?
Statistics will be hard to find since we do not know about messages that were not intercepted...

Furthermore, the information should be given with some delay i.e. if the TF emits at let's say 10:00pm and is detected, the information should be given only at let's say 11:00pm because you need time to make the triangulation and transmit the information; and of course no updating of the position: the information should be given as "one TF has been detected emitting at 10:00pm in hex ####"

However we may think to give some information about the identity of the emitter (CV, BB, CA) since specialized services actually had the capability to identify the ships that were emitting.


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Bladerunner
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PostPosted: Thu 2 Nov - 15:38 (2017)    Post subject: Radio silence Reply with quote

I know also that there were some deception in the area
A radio team could be maintained ashore while its ship was on secret mission
The enemy was then lured, thinking the ship was in port


For the delay, yes why not. More realistic but add a bit of complexity (programmatically)
Otherwise, may be 30%


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USS Archerfish
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PostPosted: Thu 2 Nov - 19:03 (2017)    Post subject: Radio silence Reply with quote

Sometimes it took a half a day before information was forwarded to the ships. Also, the information was not precise. You would be able to pin point a hex unless you had 3 separate radio stations pick up the signal. The 3 stations had to forward this info to a central command where it had to be interpreted then relayed. Getting that info to a ship in an hour would be extremely fast. 


Now a TF could pick it up and know the basic direction of where it came from but not where.  So it could send out a scout in the direction of the signal.  Sometimes this can be crucial before the battle such as Midway.  US carriers kept silent.  I know of one case where a lone returning SBD (scout I believe) was flying over the CV but couldn't see it because of overcast. The CV wouldn't respond in order not to give away its location.  However, they didn't know what kind of ship was transmitting the signal. Each ship in the fleet and squadron had a different call sign.  These call signs changed EVERY DAY!  I know this because that was one of my jobs on the USS Midway.  I was one of the people that posted this information for the Air Boss. (Air Boss was the officer who had control of all aircraft of the flight deck and everything in the air space within 5 miles of the ship). I know this procedure went back as far as WWII.  Now they might be able to tell the difference between ships and a squadron but only if the US and the IJN had an interpreter on board to translate the radio transmiss.  I do know know if they did.  Also, heard that DD would sometimes go off somewhere by themselves and start talking like a carrier.  This is the deception BR was talking about. So if you're going to allow radio detection, then I want the ability to create deception..


Overall I think this would be very difficult to implement unless we can find a good source of info.   The only thing I see that can feasibly be implemented with in the game is a general direction where a signal came from in 60 degree arc.  


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Bladerunner
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PostPosted: Fri 3 Nov - 14:55 (2017)    Post subject: Radio silence Reply with quote

USS Archerfish wrote:
Sometimes it took a half a day before information was forwarded to the ships. Also, the information was not precise. You would be able to pin point a hex unless you had 3 separate radio stations pick up the signal. The 3 stations had to forward this info to a central command where it had to be interpreted then relayed. Getting that info to a ship in an hour would be extremely fast. 


Now a TF could pick it up and know the basic direction of where it came from but not where.  So it could send out a scout in the direction of the signal.  Sometimes this can be crucial before the battle such as Midway.  US carriers kept silent.  I know of one case where a lone returning SBD (scout I believe) was flying over the CV but couldn't see it because of overcast. The CV wouldn't respond in order not to give away its location.  However, they didn't know what kind of ship was transmitting the signal. Each ship in the fleet and squadron had a different call sign.  These call signs changed EVERY DAY!  I know this because that was one of my jobs on the USS Midway.  I was one of the people that posted this information for the Air Boss. (Air Boss was the officer who had control of all aircraft of the flight deck and everything in the air space within 5 miles of the ship). I know this procedure went back as far as WWII.  Now they might be able to tell the difference between ships and a squadron but only if the US and the IJN had an interpreter on board to translate the radio transmiss.  I do know know if they did.  Also, heard that DD would sometimes go off somewhere by themselves and start talking like a carrier.  This is the deception BR was talking about. So if you're going to allow radio detection, then I want the ability to create deception..


Overall I think this would be very difficult to implement unless we can find a good source of info.   The only thing I see that can feasibly be implemented with in the game is a general direction where a signal came from in 60 degree arc.  



Thank you for your precious feedback !


Looking at your conclusion, I don't think it is worth to do improvement just to display a direction of radio contact as they might be a lot or really far away and it may not help that much


However it does not change the fact that usually CV tried to get silent and currently the game is not giving any incentive to do so 


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larsenjp
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PostPosted: Fri 3 Nov - 17:31 (2017)    Post subject: Radio silence Reply with quote

Archerfish,

Great information! So you were working for USN. Lucky guy!

Regarding interpreter, yes, they had. At least during the Battle of Coral Sea, one of the two US CV had an officer speaking Japanese and he was able to get very precious information especially by listening to the Japanese scouts. Carriers were trying to keep silent but scouts were more talkative. By listening to the Japanese scouts, the US knew that they had been discovered but their CAPs were strangely ineffective in shooting down the snoopers (either they were very skillful playing with clouds or they had luck). Fortunately for the US carriers, they had been discovered by the scouts coming from the Japanese cruisers covering the invasion force to PM, not the ones from the Japanese CVs and the information did not reached quickly enough the Japanese admirals onboard Shokaku and Zuikaku (i think it reached too late, they already had the information on their own). So they launched a raid to what they thought were the US carriers but actually were the oiler Neosho and its escort DD, much to the despair of the Japanese admiral commanding the cruisers who knew exactly what was happening but could not do anything...

Regarding the game, for sake of simplicity and playability, i would allow for detecting any TF that is sending a message with the information passed on to the player with some delay, so maybe more than an hour, maybe six hours. Currently, this is maybe not a very valuable information but when the game will move towards scenarios with extended time line (e.g. Coral Sea over five days...) or towards campaign game, this will be very valuable.
Another point i think we already discussed is that i should want to be aware about enemy scouts flying around my TFs and maybe finding the TF and communicating with its carrier or airbase. I think this is missing quite a lot, together with the possibility of reacting and trying to shoot down the enemy scouts (if the TF has a CAP of course). This was happening all the time and had or could have had a lot of influence on the outcome of the 1942' battles.


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currymutton
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PostPosted: Mon 6 Nov - 01:27 (2017)    Post subject: Radio silence Reply with quote

I dunno the Japanese could have done this so early in the war.

IIRC, this is not even in Flat Top (but don't count on that)


I know the Allied did that during the War in the Atlantic in which the U Boats did periodic radio reports the the HQ, the Allied intercepted the radio waves and deduce the location of the U Boats. Then the hunters are unleashed. This leads to the use of ultra low frequency communication.


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USS Archerfish
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PostPosted: Mon 6 Nov - 08:09 (2017)    Post subject: Radio silence Reply with quote

Well after doing some research I realize that the US torpedo problem in 1942 was more miserable than I though.  I found a pretty good article on the torpedoes here.
http://www.historynet.com/us-torpedo-troubles-during-world-war-ii.htm
It seems that after doing some testing that the torpedoes failed to detonate 70% of the time when hitting targets at 90' and 50% failures at 45'. So with this data I have to admit that the US torpedoes are about right. 


Still need to check on torpedoes dropped on IJN bombers. 


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currymutton
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PostPosted: Mon 6 Nov - 08:34 (2017)    Post subject: Radio silence Reply with quote

Wrong thread, I presume?
USS Archerfish wrote:
Well after doing some research I realize that the US torpedo problem in 1942 was more miserable than I though.  I found a pretty good article on the torpedoes here.
http://www.historynet.com/us-torpedo-troubles-during-world-war-ii.htm
It seems that after doing some testing that the torpedoes failed to detonate 70% of the time when hitting targets at 90' and 50% failures at 45'. So with this data I have to admit that the US torpedoes are about right. 


Still need to check on torpedoes dropped on IJN bombers. 



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USS Archerfish
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PostPosted: Mon 6 Nov - 10:26 (2017)    Post subject: Radio silence Reply with quote

currymutton wrote:
Wrong thread, I presume?
USS Archerfish wrote:
Well after doing some research I realize that the US torpedo problem in 1942 was more miserable than I though.  I found a pretty good article on the torpedoes here.
http://www.historynet.com/us-torpedo-troubles-during-world-war-ii.htm
It seems that after doing some testing that the torpedoes failed to detonate 70% of the time when hitting targets at 90' and 50% failures at 45'. So with this data I have to admit that the US torpedoes are about right. 


Still need to check on torpedoes dropped on IJN bombers. 








Doh!


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larsenjp
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PostPosted: Tue 7 Nov - 00:06 (2017)    Post subject: Radio silence Reply with quote

currymutton wrote:
I dunno the Japanese could have done this so early in the war.


Well actually the US did it at the Coral Sea, i mean listening at the Japanese scouts with a Japanese-speaking officer, and most probably they did it later in a more organized way.
As for the Japanese, i don't know if they had English-speaking officers on board their carriers listening to the USN frequencies; i will check.


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SBD


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PostPosted: Sat 18 Nov - 01:05 (2017)    Post subject: Radio silence Reply with quote

My apologies for not contributing during November, particularly as my comments apparently triggered Bladerunner’s post.
Plus the unreliability of my much vaunted iPad, failed battery and intermittent ‘net connection!?


I believe this topic of radio silence is the tail wagging the dog.


I proposed on 28th October, and gave reasons why an ATTACK from a CARRIER should not be recalled.
It did not happen! Very very risky One lucky exception, at least in 1942. 
The need for radio silence was paramount when the heavy weight glass jawed warrior was at her most vulnerable ie sending out a strike and the possibility of being hit herself because her enemies were nearby. 
They must be else she would not have launched a strike.
Recalls of scouts and random, small %, of attacks through mechanical failure should be automatic.
I suggest it is an undue complication of the game for no great benefit.
Recall and redirection of a carrier and land based attack is micro managing and ahistorical.
Please give a comparable example in WW2


Strategic radio silence pre Pearl and Midway was absolute too.


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SBD


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PostPosted: Sat 18 Nov - 01:16 (2017)    Post subject: Radio silence Reply with quote

PS 
Recalls and redirection of land based attacks did not appear to happen also because of presumably poor radio communication,
and the possibility of the enemy listening to the messages, so they could prepare better defences.
I don’t recall reading of examples, though there were many examples of scouts advising their bases.
I know carrier based scouts advised base in code and/or via a secret location reference,
Code may have been used by land based scouts too?


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PostPosted: Today at 04:39 (2017)    Post subject: Radio silence

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