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Aircraft Unit Iventory

 
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USS Archerfish
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PostPosted: Sat 11 Nov - 04:25 (2017)    Post subject: Aircraft Unit Iventory Reply with quote

After noticing discrepancies with the A-29 I started looking into the Aircraft Unit Inventory under Air Units.  I noticed multiple discrepancies.  But before I go into this I need some clarifications on the rules


Air Units - On page 1 it describes the numbers on the counter.  


Upper left - Air to Air, Center - Air to Ground, Upper right - Air to Sea


Question: Does Air to ground mean only bombing or bombing and strafing?  Because in the Air Units Inventory page some fighter show bombing capabilities and others don't. To to me is providing conflicting information.


Question: I notice some aircraft have such as the A-20, have Air to Sea capability but have no fuel listing under Torpedo. Does this mean they can attack Sea targets but only with bombs?


Question: Does "Fuel Tank" provide any information that is relevant to the game or is it just statistical info?


Question: Why do some fighters have Air to Sea capabilities but others do not?
So here are the discrepancies I found. 

Hudson A-29  -  No bomb fuel info
Claude A5M  -  No transfer info
Rufe A6MN. -  No transfer info
Mitchel B-25 - No fuel tank info
Ventura B-34 - No fuel tank info
Jean B4Y - No fuel tank info
Kate B5N - No fuel tank info
Jill B6N - No fuel tank info
Val D3A - No bomb or transfer info
Judy D4Y - No bomb or transfer info (Is it torpedo capable.)
Nell G3M - No fuel tank info
Betty G4M - No fuel tank info
Sonia Ki-51 No bomb or transfer info
Devastator- No fuel tank info
Avenger - No fuel tank info


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PostPosted: Sat 11 Nov - 04:25 (2017)    Post subject: Publicité

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USS Archerfish
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PostPosted: Sat 11 Nov - 04:39 (2017)    Post subject: Aircraft Unit Iventory Reply with quote

I noticed that the Rufe A6MN is wrong. It should be the A6M2-N.


Also why does the B-17 only have a Air to Ground tasting of 2?  It's should be 3, equal to the B-24 since both used the Norden Bomb sight. 


Sorry, I'm on a roll now.  Looking at everything. 


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larsenjp
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PostPosted: Sat 11 Nov - 14:55 (2017)    Post subject: Aircraft Unit Iventory Reply with quote

Archerfish,

Yes i already noticed some problems with the air units.
Regarding B-17 i agree its air-to-ground capability is too weak. I think it has 1 or 2 which is really too weak compared to B-24 or even B-25/B-26.

Regarding fighters with air-to-ground capabilities, it seems to me that their factors are taken into account when calculating the global number of air-to-ground factors, together with factors coming from bombers units. So it seems they are considered rather as fighter-bombers than straffers. To be confirmed by BR.

Regarding fuel tank i do not really know how to use this. Actually from the rules, it seems to be the default mode. But how is it possible to turn it off and get back to normal fuel capacity (and normal bomb/torpedo load since the rule specifies that fuel tanks option decrease the offensive capacities which is logical)?
To me, the default mode should be normal bomb/torpedo load and normal fuel capacity. Then, as an option, one should be able to use additional fuel tanks in order to increase range (but of course at the cost of decreasing bomb/torpedo load i.e. the air-to-ground or air-to-sea capability).
What do you think?


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USS Archerfish
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PostPosted: Sat 11 Nov - 21:35 (2017)    Post subject: Aircraft Unit Iventory Reply with quote

I think Fuel Tanks are primary fuel range for aircraft. My guess is that that for fighters it's their escort range, bombers their bombing range and torpedo planes their torpedo bombing range. 


Part of the confusion comes with the term Air to Ground and Air to Sea.  My guess is that Air to Ground means strafing and bombing.  For fighters I believe if you choose "Escort" then the aircraft only does strafing damage. If you choose bombs it does Bombing damage.  With Air to Sea I originally thought it was just torpedo attacks but after examining all of the Air rules it just means that the aircraft can attack Sea targets. 


The other issue that confuses me is why some fighters can attack Sea targets but most can't. I think all fighters should be able to attack both Sea and Land targets or none at all.  


If I were to modify this rule I would allow all fighters to attack both land and sea target. If fighters are on escort they would only do strafing damage. They would concentrate on CV, TRS, DDs and CLs in that order.  Guns would be practically useless against CAs and BBs
However, if there is a enemy CAP, fighters may not perform ground or sea attacks. Fighters on bombing runs will jettison bomb loads to engage fighters.  This is what usually occurred. 


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Bladerunner
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PostPosted: Sun 12 Nov - 14:57 (2017)    Post subject: Aircraft Unit Iventory Reply with quote

Transfer range of Japanese units :  
Added 


B-17 : 
This is strategic bombers carrying a heavy payload but taking no risk by bombing at high altitude. Bad against factories (German civilians casualties) and poor against airfields or ground troops
B-26 is able to carry almost the same payload and release it at lower altitude. 
B-25 is also able to be used a gunship, a good TAC
B-24 is able to carry an heavier payload on a longer range


Fighters :
By default, their can only strife
        If you use them as bombers (bomber silhouette) then they carry bombs and may inflict damage on airfield and sometimes ships if they carry enough bombs 
May putting the A2G factor between brackets would be better to emphasise the no-bomb payload ?


Bomb / Fuel :
Some aircraft may use an increased bomb load which sacrifices the range (ex: B-17)
The SBD has a different payload depending on the type fo bombs (500 or 1000 lbs) carried. This is special case where I got the data
For some bombers, it seems that they were not able to carry extra bombs even if flying at reduced range. This was the case for the D3A for instance which could only use 250 lb bombs. They appear only in the drop-tank column
Some have no possibility to add fuel tanks even if they carry less bombs. Ex: the early A20 model. They are only in the bomb column


I could may be rename the column to "Long Range", "Short Range", what do you think ?
It has to be in line with the previous page explaining the different payloads




I see that some models have more payload than in the game so I will give a give of update to this


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Bladerunner
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PostPosted: Sun 12 Nov - 15:04 (2017)    Post subject: Aircraft Unit Iventory Reply with quote

This website is giving precious input
http://pwencycl.kgbudge.com/A/-/A-28_Hudson.htm


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larsenjp
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PostPosted: Sun 12 Nov - 16:34 (2017)    Post subject: Aircraft Unit Iventory Reply with quote

OK, after reading again the air units rules, i better understand.
For instance, the A-20 has 22 hexes of range within the fuel tank configuration with A2G/A2S factors of 1/2 while under bombs configuration, the range is only 11 hexes but with A2G/A2S factors of 2/3.
I guess the game automatically selects the correct option depending on the distance to target when defining the raid. So no need to switch from one mode to another...

The only difficulty is to find correct data...

Personally i would use something like "Long Range"/"Normal Range" to distinguish between the two modes but "Short Range" is also OK.

Regarding fighters, yes, putting the A2G factor between brackets should be fine in order to distinguish straffers (damage only to air units parked within the airbase) from fighter-bombers (possible damage to the airbase itself).

Regarding fighters against ships, i think there are tow possibilities:
- fighters-bombers like the P-400 from the famous "Jagdstaffel" in Henderson field that could actually attack boats, generally TRS or DDs; they rarely tried to attack main units like cruisers or battleships, at least at this moment of the war
- straffers, typically F4F; they were attacking TRS and DDS as well and manage to get very good results using only their machine guns, first against TRS, then DDs (i remember they managed to sink one DD only with machine guns fire but i have to make some search about it).
Of course both should be submitted to AA fire.
Regarding Japanese fighters, i do not remember any example of them attacking ships, especially warships, even DDs.
So i would authorize US fighter-bombers or straffers to attack TRS/DDs but i would not authorize Japanese fighters to do so.


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USS Archerfish
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PostPosted: Sun 12 Nov - 19:04 (2017)    Post subject: Aircraft Unit Iventory Reply with quote

Thanks BR


I agree with everything you said with one exception, the B-17. I believe it should have a Air to Ground of "3".  Because I thought   "Air to Ground" means the ability to accurately hit ground targets.  I assumed that payload damage was added after a successful hit based on each aircraft payload. 


So if the Air to Ground factor means only an aircrafts ability to accurately hit a target, then the B-17 should be equal to the B-24. They both used the Norden bomb site.  So accuracy was equal and both bombed at high altitude.  But if you are saying that Air to Ground is combining both accuracy and payload in one calculation then I can understand but it still...  So which method are you using? 


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