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Bladerunner
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PostPosted: Wed 15 Nov - 23:09 (2017)    Post subject: Search major improvement Reply with quote

Now this is for sure, the search system need to be reviewed


Below my wish-list based on my conception of the game but also on players feedback
This make tap one or two version to complete but this has clearly the priority

Its this will evolve, I will update this first post as a recap



Search pattern


SOLUTION A
The closer to reality but the most difficult part. Hence it is optional for now, I have still to decide. Some rules below may apply with or without this new search pattern


  • Today in a search box with a probability. All the radius is covered . No so realistic but simple
  • In real life, the search angle is split between the different scout planes. They fill up to search range, make a turn on right continue a little bit, then come back. At the end they have covered a small arc. The arc width has an impact on the search range because of the length of the turn
  • Search units would need to be managed at the plane level, not the unit (4 planes) level. Sending one unit on a 120° search, means each plane is trying to cover about 30° 
  • Each phase scout planes advanced 2 hexes and follow the pattern described above. They will be located in a given hex and will scan the hex around, depending on the visibility 
  • The visibility seems to be 50 miles maximum (http://pwencycl.kgbudge.com/R/e/Reconnaissance.htm)
  • The visibility is reduced by the  weather in each hex from the scout to the target.  Overcast - 20 miles,  Rain -30 miles, Light Storm -40 miles . Without weather the visibility could be reduced by a die-roll 
  • The visibility is increased for large force (10 ships ) + 10 miles and if the force contains a BB or a CV +10 miles
  • Any force located at a distance inferior to the visibility is detected. : 60 miles for 2 hexes, 30 miles for 1 hex. In the same hex a visibility of 20 miles is OK but a visibility of 10 miles only gives only a 30% chance of detection. A visibility of 0 miles is a failure
  • The map should show the individual scouts (small counter corresponding to aircraft type) and their remaining search pattern. This may be a bit crowdy
  • Without this rule, the max search range ring could be display instead of 12.5% detection chance ring today
  • The most drawback of this rule is the management of solo planes. What to do in case or plane loss. The air unit is left with 3 planes. How to repent this ? Maybe this implies to transform the whole game at single plane scale (not impossible at all)






SOLUTION B


Same as today. Scout are located in their search box
Same probabilities to find but instead of searching the whole arc, search is limited to their current search range +/-1 
Ex: a B-17 with expanded range 6 will be able to see hexes located between 5 and 7 hexes of its airbase




Search speed
  • At the search box level : normal or slow 
  • Normal with the speed and the range of an air strike. May a bit of more range because unarmed
  • Slow :1 hex per phase only but greater range

Detection of scout planes
  • Difficult because of usually one single airplane. detection attempt at -20% (See advanced section of Airstrike, Warning page)
  • The weather has a great impact as scouts are trying to hide inside the clouds. -10% for overcast, -20% rain and -30% storm
  • If detected then the CAP will engage the scout air units 
  • If detected an event will be logged. Is it a major event breaking any fast forward ? May be yes for carriers. Could be annoying because of relentless notification of shadowing scouts

Detection of naval forces
  • Airstrikes are as a good as scout planes to detect enemy forces or even better (more planes). Today the system does not give them enough chances. Their visibility in current hex and around should be improved. If the new search pattern is adopted, then follow this rule 
  • En-route detection should be also enhanced. If the new search pattern is adopted, then follow this rule 
  • The chance of detecting naval forces should take the number of ships into account. Large forces are covering a large area and leave a lot of wakes.
  • Today, when an airstrike detects something the naval forces appears visible. Radio is not taken into account. No change here
  • Intelligence. Today when a force has not been searches a given turn, it has 30% of losing one intelligence level. Tomorrow, depending on the elapsed time between last detection and the new one, a new intelligence will be assigned to the force. If the gap is small, the intelligence will increase. It is huge, then may the information gathered will be poor. Intelligence will increase with shadowing
  • ? Information on the heading. 
  • ? Rework the search table. It may be too easy to make long-range search. alternatively use the new search pattern
  • add a link on the Log page to show the location of the reported enemy force 


Shadowing
  • Shadowing consist of scout air plus staying in the vicinity of an enemy force in order to get a maximum of information and position update on this latter. 
  • Shadowing is allowed after detection an enemy airforce which has not detected the scout or is not able to send any CAP to intercept
  • One shadowing air unit max per force (random). The unit is marked as shadowing in its search box. It cannot search anything else outside a perimeter of 2 hexes around shadowed force (this represent the other brother scout of the air units). Ignore with search pattern A
  • With Solution A for search pattern, shadowing units will interrupt their pattern and stick to the hex of the shadowed force. They will resume as best as they can if chased away
  • When shadowing, the intelligence and position of the force are automatically updated. A visibility check is needed when playing with Solution A  
  • An attempt to detect shadowing air units will be done each phase . With the new search pattern, any scout plane may be detected 
  • Shadowing is automatic by default.

May be a setting at search box level may prevent to shadow in order to avoid losing the last search aircraft or to shadow a target of little importance [*]With the new search pattern, shadowing scout planes with their beneath visibility (in order to 100% chance of detection)  and closer to their base so that they stay longer shadowing


Detection of airstrikes
  • Airstrikes could be detected by scout planes 
  • Airstrikes could be detected by other airstrikes


Air to air combat with scout air units
  • With the new search pattern CAP may fight scout planes even if not in the same hex as their base
  • Less chance to be destroyed because they attempt to fly away and they are usually single plane and not a full air unit of 4 planes. The air unit ruggedness is increased by 2 (ignore if playing a scale of 1 plane per air unit)
  • The CAP has less chance to be damaged or destroyed by single scout. The ruggedness is increased by 3
  • The CAP air unit is fighting at 4 planes against one. Their air-to-air factor is increased 
  • The chance of out of ammunition for a CAP air unit against single scout is only 10%  instead of 50%
  • One CAP (random) unit max per scout single plane. 2 against an air unit
  • The distant CAP will also engage spotted scouts
  • If the scout is damaged, it must return to base. It is placed on map 1 hex away from the force as an undetected (so invisible for the opponent) airstrike (in the hex it is with search pattern A).  It should not be easy for the enemy to follow the air unit direction to find the search airbase. Hence this airstrike is not detected at the beginning and as a very small airstrikes it should be difficult to locate it
  • If the scout remains intact, then it returns to its search box but no shadowing is allowed. With the search pattern A, the scout resume its pattern. An event is logged for both players
  • If the scout is destroyed, there is a 50% chance that the position of the force has not been sent. In this case, its owner will receive an event reporting the loss of the air unit and a rough estimate of its last position (about 2 hexes from the force location)
  • If the scout is damaged, there is a 20% chance that the position of the force has not been sent. Its owner with get a rough location report. Ignore with new search pattern
  • Air combat could be animated (a bit of work as it is a new type of combat, air-to-air) and/or logged. Should this be visible to player which has lost a scout without sending a radio message ? 



Display on map of Naval forces
  • The map shows only the last known position of enemy forces 
  • Fading display depending on the recent position update or not. Say about 3 turns visibles.

This should still allow blind strikes even of the position is accurate anymore [*]The last update time is visible when touching the force [*]After surface combat at night, it is difficult to know where the enemy has gone. so hide the enemy force or leave it in the battle hex ? Probable hide


Attack
  • A friendly force attempt to engage an force which is finally not in the same hex as last known position

A message should explain that the force has vanished
Should we keep the force counter in the hex anyway or remove it ? Proably remove [*]An airstrike attempt to engage an force which is finally not in the same hex as last known position
As today, it will attempt to attack any close and detected force. Otherwise will abort.
The force couter will disappear [*]The log should mention failure to contact and false contacts by airstrikes


Airplanes
  • The CAP may fight scout planes from sea-plane bases or cruisers (Catalina, Mavis...)
  • Additional reco aircraft could be available on airfields (Ki-46, F-5,....). These pure reco planes may to be part of a strike 
  • Scout units are considered today as unarmed. Thus, the range could be slightly improved
  • According to tale on the Battle of The Philippines Sea, E13A on cruisers had each up to 345 miles (11 hexes) and TBF up to 375 miles https://books.google.fr/books?id=MF-CAwAAQBAJ&pg=PA263&lpg=PA263&am…



AI
  • This is to be defined what can do the AI. It won't take advantage of all the possibiilities for sure.
  • Today the AI uses mostly 360°. Tomorrow airfields at least coudl use narrower angle and adjust them based on past detections



Weather
  • Should it become standard as it has a central effect on the detection ?


Last edited by Bladerunner on Thu 30 Nov - 14:17 (2017); edited 7 times in total
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currymutton
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PostPosted: Thu 16 Nov - 02:41 (2017)    Post subject: Search major improvement Reply with quote

I always op for Harpoon style of searching. Sorry, off-topic


Still digesting the things but what I want to say is, please slow down the search planes, most CV-based dive-bombers are up to no good even in current scheme in searching.


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currymutton
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PostPosted: Thu 16 Nov - 04:43 (2017)    Post subject: My words are in italics Reply with quote

Bladerunner wrote:
New Search pattern
  • In real life, the search angle is split between the different scout planes. They fill up to search range, make a turn on right continue a little bit, then come back. At the end they have covered a small arc. The arc width has an impact on the search range because of the length of the turn

Question: I recall there was a search pattern thing: planes fly around in a circle, or in a S-shape, etc. So technically the search circle is expanding, shrinking, and repeat along the search range  till the plane ran out of fuel. right? And does search pattern affects the probability of finding something?


  • Each phase scout planes advanced 2 hexes and follow the pattern described above. They will be located in a given hex and will scan the hex around, depending on the visibility

Statement: again, I still opt for slow search
  • The visibility is increased for large force (10 ships ) + 10 miles and if the force contains a BB or a CV +10 miles

Question: are these 2 accumulative? My take, yes
  • The map should show the individual scouts (small counter corresponding to aircraft type) and their remaining search pattern. This may be a bit crowdy

Statement: as in Flat Top, I think it is fine to show everything
  • Without this rule, the max search range ring could be display instead of 12.5% detection chance ring today

Suggestion: and without the range extension bonus

Detection of scout planes
  • Difficult because of usually one single airplane. detection attempt at -20% (See advanced section of Airstrike, Warning page)

Question: does the presence of air radar help? presence of CAP helps? There are more eyes up there
  • If detected an event will be logged. Is it a major event breaking any fast forward ? May be yes for carriers. Could be annoying because of relentless notification of shadowing scouts

Staetment: 1942 Pacific Air War makes killing a shadowing flying boat an air mission. It think it is okay to learn a nasty stalker presence in your backyard.

Detection of naval forces
  • Airstrikes are as a good as scout planes to detect enemy forces or even better (more planes). Today the system does not give them enough chances. Their visibility in current hex and around should be improved. If the new search pattern is adopted, then follow this rule 

Statement: no problem here
  • En-route detection should be also enhanced. If the new search pattern is adopted, then follow this rule 

Statement: sound good
  • Intelligence. Today when a force has not been searches a given turn, it has 30% of losing one intelligence level. Tomorrow, depending on the elapsed time between last detection and the new one, a new intelligence will be assigned to the force. If the gap is small, the intelligence will increase. It is huge, then may the information gathered will be poor. Intelligence will increase with shadowing

Hesitation: not entirely sure what you mean


Shadowing
  • Shadowing is allowed after detection an enemy airforce which has not detected the scout or is not able to send any CAP to intercept

Consideration: must the interceptors sent must be from the TF being shadowed, or is it okay to send planes from another base or other TF?
  • One shadowing air unit max per force (random). The unit is marked as shadowing in its search box. It cannot search anything else outside a perimeter of 2 hexes around shadowed force (this represent the other brother scout of the air units). Ignore wit the new search pattern

Note: will be shadowing plane endurance be affected, it is not flying at full speed I presume?
  • With the new search pattern in use, shadowing units will interrupt their pattern and stick to the hex of the shadowed force. They will resume as best as they can if chased away

Question: will the shadowing plane do extra search outside the target too? Say I have a search plane going after a TF already, can it still search outside the TF too? I mean multitasking...


May be a setting at search box level may prevent to shadow in order to avoid losing the last search aircraft or to shadow a target of little importance


Question: back to basic: is shadowing limited to player-controller planes? Can seaplanes do so? The latter should be allowed do as they did historically


Detection of airstrikes
  • Airstrikes could be detected by other airstrikes

Statement: so when I am making bomb runs against a base, and now I can see them sending out bombers against my units too. Okay, this can lead to some interesting consequences



Air to air combat with scout air units
  • The distant CAP will also engage spotted scouts

Clarification: you mean LR CAP
  • Air combat could be animated (a bit of work as it is a new type of combat, air-to-air) and/or logged. Should this be visible to player which has lost a scout without sending a radio message ? 

Statement: I prefer logged only


Display on map of Naval forces
  • The map shows only the last known position of enemy forces

Request: add a link on the Log page to show the location of the reported enemy force



This should still allow blind strikes even of the position is not accurate anymore

Statement: good! But considering some gamey suicidal attack will be made

Attack
  • A friendly force attempt to engage an force which is finally not in the same hex as last known position

A message should explain that the force has vanished
Should we keep the force counter in the hex anyway or remove it ? Probably remove


Statement: remove the counter.

Airplanes
  • The CAP may fight scout planes from sea-plane bases or cruisers (Catalina, Mavis...)

Statement: okay
  • Additional reco aircraft could be available on airfields (Ki-46, F-5,....). These pure reco planes may not be part of a strike 

Statement: I agree to no armed recon for the time being


AI
  • Today the AI uses mostly 360°. Tomorrow airfields at least coudl use narrower angle and adjust them based on past detections

Statement: I think the ability for the AI to not using all-around search is more important.

Weather
  • Should it become standard as it has a central effect on the detection ?



Statement: Some scenario should, and some scenario should not. IIRC, Midway is fought under all clear weather






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USS Archerfish
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PostPosted: Thu 16 Nov - 08:50 (2017)    Post subject: Search major improvement Reply with quote

It looks very promising but we'll have to see how well it works once it's implemented. 


One feature that I would like to have is that it shows the direction the TF is traveling. This can be represented by a small white arrow on the outer edge of the hex. Just a thought.


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larsenjp
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PostPosted: Thu 16 Nov - 22:19 (2017)    Post subject: Search major improvement Reply with quote

Very very promising. Okay
I think this will make a completely new game...
I need some more time to understand everything and comment.
Fully agree with Archerfish, we will have to test and see how the game behaves after this.
But again, it sounds really great.


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Bladerunner
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PostPosted: Thu 16 Nov - 22:22 (2017)    Post subject: Search major improvement Reply with quote

The new search pattern has a flaw
  • The most drawback of this rule is the management of solo planes. What to do in case or plane loss. The air unit is left with 3 planes. How to repent this ? Maybe this implies to transform the whole game at single plane scale (not impossible at all)


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larsenjp
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PostPosted: Fri 17 Nov - 00:16 (2017)    Post subject: Search major improvement Reply with quote

Aha, it would be a major improvement for the game, adding much more realism and tactical flexibility.
It would be really great to manage planes individually as ships are.

Actually you need planes to make anti-sub patrols (and it will come), planes for short and long-range searches, planes for CAPs and finally planes for attack raids... but it is not because there is a major operation going on that you stop the "routine " ones; otherwise you may pay the price for it (typically antisub patrols are vital all the time).

It will require to change all the tables (search, combat) to account for new probabilities...


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currymutton
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PostPosted: Fri 17 Nov - 05:38 (2017)    Post subject: Search major improvement Reply with quote

BR, please take time and address.  Thank you.

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Bladerunner
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PostPosted: Fri 17 Nov - 15:17 (2017)    Post subject: Search major improvement Reply with quote

 Have added an image of the Japanese search pattern used at Midway.
Someone was mentioning S-shape pattern bu I could not find anything on this. Any link ?


If the single plane scale comes out, then that would be a 3.0 !


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Bladerunner
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PostPosted: Fri 17 Nov - 15:19 (2017)    Post subject: Search major improvement Reply with quote

I will add back the slow search allowing for greater range. An option at the search box level. 1 hex per phase instead of 2

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larsenjp
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PostPosted: Fri 17 Nov - 20:30 (2017)    Post subject: Search major improvement Reply with quote

Bladerunner wrote:
 Have added an image of the Japanese search pattern used at Midway.
Someone was mentioning S-shape pattern bu I could not find anything on this. Any link ?


Honestly, i never saw this kind of search pattern but i am interested if somebody gives any reference.
Generally the patterns were like BR described but possibly with some improvements like double searches (with 2 planes instead of 1) or with the search planes taking off before dawn in order to be on their search zone at daylight (but with the inconvenient of not seeing anything on the forward leg).


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SBD


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PostPosted: Sat 18 Nov - 01:50 (2017)    Post subject: Search major improvement Reply with quote

Thank you Bladerunner for your work on this.
Brief comment before my iPad looses the ‘net and my post.
The example is the diagram appears to be the IJN search before Midway.
Per Parshall and others it was very poor and left gaps that can be clearly seen.
Per Hammel re E Solomons and Santa Cruz, the USN flew SBDs in pairs every 10 degrees out to 200m plus.
Much more thorough and we play the USN in CB4G?
I can give more examples later.
I have considered this problem based on hexes for simple search system for a face to face CV battle at my local games club.
It is potentially very complex.
My fellow IT gamers/programmers suggested a percentage of success per hex, probably diminishing as the scout flies further out.
Pragmatic and much simpler.
Controlling individual search planes sounds a nightmare.
Simulating flying over the largest ocean on the planet...... zzzzzzzzzzzz
Send out the scouts and get a result.
We are the admiral not the observer on a PBY etc


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Bladerunner
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PostPosted: Sat 18 Nov - 15:41 (2017)    Post subject: Search major improvement Reply with quote

So SBD, if I follow you correctly,
you are not in favour in detailing too much the search pattern, right ?


An alternative is to keep the current system which uses distance, number of air units and a probability an improve it somehow
Instead of considering the all area is covered, just consider that a plane with current search range of N may only detect a ship between N-1 and N+1 with fine weather. 
Instead of drawing coloured arc son the map, one could just have an area formed by the two arcs (N-1 and N+1). 
This is reducing a bit the scout power. If the scout is far, it cannot detect forces close to its base
This is also somehow allowing the scout to see something outside its maximum range (One hex farther)

This is a bit more realistic, not a nightmare to code, explain or display


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larsenjp
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PostPosted: Sat 18 Nov - 17:26 (2017)    Post subject: Search major improvement Reply with quote

Bladerunner wrote:
An alternative is to keep the current system which uses distance, number of air units and a probability an improve it somehow
Instead of considering the all area is covered, just consider that a plane with current search range of N may only detect a ship between N-1 and N+1 with fine weather. 
Instead of drawing coloured arc son the map, one could just have an area formed by the two arcs (N-1 and N+1). 
This is reducing a bit the scout power. If the scout is far, it cannot detect forces close to its base
This is also somehow allowing the scout to see something outside its maximum range (One hex farther)

This is a bit more realistic, not a nightmare to code, explain or display


Yes, this should be much more realistic since scouts cannot see behind them (well they can see behind them but no more that they can see in front of them or in any other direction).
If, for some reason (typically weather) scouts do not see something in an hexe and keep going on along their search path, then they cannot see anything in this hexe unless they come back (typically during the return leg back to base). Seeing one hexe out of the range is not a problem, we know that physically you can see far away from your current position when you are in a plane.

However, to me, this would be still unsatisfactory because the game won't be able to deal with shooting down scouts unless they are individualized and this is an important feature. Among a pattern of let's say 4 scouts, we need to know where are the scouts and which one will be under attack and possibly missing (so that nothing happen consequently on his search path and there won't be shadowing ...


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Bladerunner
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PostPosted: Sun 19 Nov - 00:50 (2017)    Post subject: Search major improvement Reply with quote

Well larsenjp, nothing prevent this feature to be combined with the scale of one plane per counter

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PostPosted: Today at 11:57 (2017)    Post subject: Search major improvement

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