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Bomber Low on Fuel - Force Return

 
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USS Archerfish
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PostPosted: Sat 13 Jan - 07:50 (2018)    Post subject: Bomber Low on Fuel - Force Return Reply with quote

I notice that IJN bombers frequently attack well beyond their range.  This usually occurs when they are sent after a US CV that is east of Guadalcanal. At launch the CV is barely in range. But by the time the bomber get there the CV has moved away.  At this point the bombers have reached their half way mark. But instread of returning to base the bombers continue to search until they find and attack there targets.  At this point the bombers usually don’t have enough fuel to return.  The player usually doesn’t care because they want the CV kill which is worth more than the loss of the bombers.  However, this I feel is very unrealistic. At this point in the war, the Japanese were desperate enough to waste valuable plane and crews on suicide mission.  If they couldn’t reach their targets, it was moe valuable to have them return safely to fight another day.  


I would like to propose that once a bomber has spent half its fuel It must return to base.  But only the aircraft that is low on fuel. Not the entire airstrike. 


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larsenjp
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PostPosted: Sun 14 Jan - 19:32 (2018)    Post subject: Bomber Low on Fuel - Force Return Reply with quote

Yes, i fully agree with this.

I also noticed that the AI was able to launch massive air raids without taking into account the night.
I was often attacked by Japanese planes one or two turns just before night, obviously coming from (and returning to) Rabaul, typically G3M or G4M bombers; i think this should also be revised and limited.


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Bladerunner
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PostPosted: Fri 19 Jan - 11:08 (2018)    Post subject: Bomber Low on Fuel - Force Return Reply with quote

Yes this should be limited


However, if some aircraft have less fuel than others, what to don?
It may split but then may not be very efficient 


Basically an air strike should return when half of the endurance has been spent with some exception
- against a CV. Go on at least a phase
- if the target is important and is detected and within 1-2 hexes
- if only a neglectable fraction of planes are lacking endurance


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USS Archerfish
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PostPosted: Fri 19 Jan - 16:31 (2018)    Post subject: Bomber Low on Fuel - Force Return Reply with quote

Bladerunner wrote:
Yes this should be limited

However, if some aircraft have less fuel than others, what to don?
It may split but then may not be very efficient 


Basically an air strike should return when half of the endurance has been spent with some exception
- against a CV. Go on at least a phase
- if the target is important and is detected and within 1-2 hexes
- if only a neglectable fraction of planes are lacking endurance




-However, if some aircraft have less fuel than others, what to do?
Only those aircraft low on fuel return. The others continue. If it splits and becomes less affective, the player can decide if he want the rest of,the strike to continue or recall them. 


Exceptions
- against a CV. Go on at least a phase
Yes 


- if the target is important and is detected and within 1-2 hexes
Yes


- if only a neglectable fraction of planes are lacking endurance

Only those planes low on fuel return.  The rest of the airstrike continues.


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larsenjp
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PostPosted: Fri 19 Jan - 17:58 (2018)    Post subject: Bomber Low on Fuel - Force Return Reply with quote

Further more we have to take into consideration that, for a raid coming from a CV, the CV can move towards the tzrget and reduce the distance. So the planes that were formerly out of range may become in range.
Or the contrary if the CV is forced to withdraw...

Of course this does not apply in the case of a raid coming from a land airbase.


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USS Archerfish
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PostPosted: Fri 19 Jan - 19:45 (2018)    Post subject: Bomber Low on Fuel - Force Return Reply with quote

larsenjp wrote:
Further more we have to take into consideration that, for a raid coming from a CV, the CV can move towards the tzrget and reduce the distance. So the planes that were formerly out of range may become in range.
Or the contrary if the CV is forced to withdraw...

Of course this does not apply in the case of a raid coming from a land airbase.


Exactly!  In naval airstrikes you can get into situations where after launch both sides move away from each other.  You sometimes get so involved in the combat that you forget to micromanage themfule range on your airstrike and find yourself sunddenly not having enough time to return to the CV.  Another issue that frequently occurs with naval airstrike is that when the planes arrive at its target the ships have moved.  Because of this, aircraft often spend a extra phase or sometimes 2 phases searching for the target and once again you find yourself short on fuel. When launching an attack from a CV to a naval target it doesn’t take this into consideration.  Maybe it would be helpful that when launching from a CV that the game’s safe return calculation range be reduced by 2 to give time for one phase of search and another phase for the attack.


Ultimately, I find myself loosing a fair number of aircraft because they run low on fuel and crash land or ditch in the ocean. At launch everything looks good but often I find my aircraft short on fuel afterwards. And by having an auto return will eliminate micromanaging and unnecessary loss.


But this post is related to bombers but now I realize it applies to all planes. That’s why I created another thread.


But my main point at the beginning is that real airstrike planner generally didn’t plan their bomber to fly beyond their range even if a valuable taget was just out of reach.  The Japanese didn’t even do this until later in the war.  Because if you lost all you bomber, what are you going to use to attack your enemies tomorrow, the day after, next week, next month and so on? It’s a long term strategic mistake. You create more problems for yourself in the long run.  In the game however, you don’t care about this as a player.  It’s only 3 days.  So it no big deal if the Japanese player throws all is bomber on a one way mission to sink a CV.  By forcing aircraft to return to base once fuel is at the halfway mark. Force the player to more realistic conditions.  


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larsenjp
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PostPosted: Fri 19 Jan - 21:58 (2018)    Post subject: Bomber Low on Fuel - Force Return Reply with quote

USS Archerfish wrote:

Exactly!  In naval airstrikes you can get into situations where after launch both sides move away from each other.  You sometimes get so involved in the combat that you forget to micromanage themfule range on your airstrike and find yourself sunddenly not having enough time to return to the CV.  Another issue that frequently occurs with naval airstrike is that when the planes arrive at its target the ships have moved.  Because of this, aircraft often spend a extra phase or sometimes 2 phases searching for the target and once again you find yourself short on fuel. When launching an attack from a CV to a naval target it doesn’t take this into consideration.  Maybe it would be helpful that when launching from a CV that the game’s safe return calculation range be reduced by 2 to give time for one phase of search and another phase for the attack.


Yes, this could be a solution but what about planes like TBDs?
Their range is already very low; if you reduce it further, there is no way you can use them.


USS Archerfish wrote:

Ultimately, I find myself loosing a fair number of aircraft because they run low on fuel and crash land or ditch in the ocean. At launch everything looks good but often I find my aircraft short on fuel afterwards. And by having an auto return will eliminate micromanaging and unnecessary loss.


The same for me even if it try to take care for it.
I agree it would be very useful since micromanaging this kind of details is i think out of the scope of the game.


USS Archerfish wrote:

But my main point at the beginning is that real airstrike planner generally didn’t plan their bomber to fly beyond their range even if a valuable target was just out of reach.  The Japanese didn’t even do this until later in the war.  Because if you lost all you bomber, what are you going to use to attack your enemies tomorrow, the day after, next week, next month and so on? It’s a long term strategic mistake. You create more problems for yourself in the long run.  In the game however, you don’t care about this as a player.  It’s only 3 days.  So it no big deal if the Japanese player throws all is bomber on a one way mission to sink a CV.  By forcing aircraft to return to base once fuel is at the halfway mark. Force the player to more realistic conditions.  


Fully agree with this and i think this should be one of the main point of a campaign game.

But to this point, i agree that forcing planes to get back to base is a solution to this problem (even if i think that if a player wastes all his bombers on day 1, he may have some problems later, even within a 3 days game).


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larsenjp
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PostPosted: Fri 19 Jan - 22:09 (2018)    Post subject: Bomber Low on Fuel - Force Return Reply with quote

Archerfish,
Something interesting for you... Cool
Regarding TBD, i just found within the related title of famed Osprey's Combat Units series the following information about the type's range:
- theoretical range with a 2000-lds torpedo: 435 miles that is actually 14.5 hex
- theoretical range with 1000-lds bomb load: 735 miles ie 24.5 hexes!!!
- in practice, the tactical maximum radius is assumed to have been around 200 miles that is 7 hexes ie a range of 14
So it seems that the current TBD's range in the game is underestimated... Wink


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USS Archerfish
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PostPosted: Sat 20 Jan - 00:52 (2018)    Post subject: Bomber Low on Fuel - Force Return Reply with quote

Yes, I have found similar data on that. I agree that the current range for the TBD is atrocious.


But if you e read my P-39 is Worthless thread.  I mentioned that most planners took the combat range and reduced it by 20% to 25%. This was so compensate for extra fuel burned in combat and unexpected circumstances such as navigation error, weather delays and time loitering over the airfield waiting to land.  I think BR tried to calculate this by allowing planes to fly up to 4 phases beyond their range. Thus the shorter range.  Even so, It seems the TBD range is understated.  I will have to do so,e more research.


But if we take 435 range -25% = 326 miles or 10.88 hex (Let’s say 10 hexes to be in the conservative side).  This would be a big improvement 


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larsenjp
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PostPosted: Sat 20 Jan - 12:09 (2018)    Post subject: Bomber Low on Fuel - Force Return Reply with quote

Yes, i agree with you and i understand from the data that it is exactly what they did.
Maximum combat radius of 200 miles gives a range of 400 miles that is still 35 miles to go compared to the range with the 2000-lbs torpedo. And if this maximum combat radius refers to an operation with the 1000-lbs payload, it is well below the corresponding maximum range. So obviously, they were very conservative regarding combat range.
Anyway, i think the TBD's range in the game should be modified.


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larsenjp
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PostPosted: Sat 20 Jan - 12:38 (2018)    Post subject: Bomber Low on Fuel - Force Return Reply with quote

USS Archerfish wrote:
But if you e read my P-39 is Worthless thread.  I mentioned that most planners took the combat range and reduced it by 20% to 25%. This was to compensate for extra fuel burned in combat and unexpected circumstances such as navigation error, weather delays and time loitering over the airfield waiting to land.  I think BR tried to calculate this by allowing planes to fly up to 4 phases beyond their range. Thus the shorter range.


OK, i understand that the game may reduce the theoretical game to an actual "combat range" but the point is that the planes that fly beyond it get heavy penalties when landing. And if i understand well your reasoning, this is illogical since they should have an extra-range beyond this combat range? Or did i misunderstand?

Maybe BR should give his way of thinking about how range are estimated in the game so that we may adjust.


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