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TBD Range Revision

 
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USS Archerfish
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PostPosted: Mon 29 Jan - 03:21 (2018)    Post subject: TBD Range Revision Reply with quote

Ive been doing some research on the TBD and I feel that the range needs to be revised. 

Most website I have visited shows the TBD to have a range of 435 miles with a Torpedo and 716 miles with a 1,000 lb bomb load.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Douglas_TBD_Devastator

This site represent the most common range I have found.


Now if we reduce this by 25% to compensate for weather and combat, this would give it a torpedo range of 326 miles or 10.88 hexes (rounding to nearest value = 11).  Bombing would by 537 miles or 17.9 hexes rounding up to 18.


TBD Dauntless Range


Torpedo 11 hexes
Bombs 18 hexes


I would like to know if any anyone else agrees with these calculations.  If not, please present information. 


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Bladerunner
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PostPosted: Mon 29 Jan - 20:01 (2018)    Post subject: TBD Range Revision Reply with quote

I don't recollect tall my sources .


Below one from http://pwencycl.kgbudge.com/T/b/TBD_Devastator.htm


low, clumsy, and not particularly rugged.  It did not help that the torpedo carried by this aircraft required an attack run at 80 feet (24m) at not more than 92 mph (148 km/h) at a range of not more than 1000 yards (910m), which made an attacking Devastator a sitting duck for both antiaircraftand fighters.  To add insult to injury, most of the torpedoes that did hit were duds. The Devastator was also capable of horizontal bombing, but this required the bombardier to lie prone in the belly of the plane, operating the Norden bombsight through a belly window.

The design was selected on 3 February 1936 over a more traditional biplane design resembling the British Swordfish. The Devastator was very innovative for its day, with such features as partially retractable landing gear, and the production order of 110 aircraft was the largest the U.S. Navy had ever placed. Its adoption prevented the Navy from abandoning torpedo bombing entirely.
However, its day had passed by the time the TBD first saw combat. It was almost thirty miles per hour (50 km/h) slower than its Japanese counterpart, the B5N Kate, and had a much shorter range. The effective combat radius of a TBD was reckoned at 150 miles (240 km) with a torpedo or 175 miles (280 km) with a 1000 lb (454 kg) bomb. This was considerably less than half the theoretical maximum range, reflecting the higher use of fuel during combat maneuvers and the need for a fuel reserve.

Production of the Devastator had already ended when war broke out, but it took some time for its replacement, the TBF Avenger, to be available in sufficient numbers to equip the carrier squadrons. However, Midway was the Devastator's last important combat operation.
`


Given that all aircraft fly at the same speed in the game (6 hexes, 180 miles per hour) and that the TBD was flying slower, I gave a further penalty to arrive to a combat radius of 120
May be it could be extended to 150 miles with bombs
Anyway, it will remain a crap







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larsenjp
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PostPosted: Mon 29 Jan - 21:02 (2018)    Post subject: TBD Range Revision Reply with quote

BR, the data given by Barrett Tillman who is the specialist of US naval aviation are somewhat clear:
- theoretical tactical range of 435 miles with a 2000 lbs torpedo and of 715 miles with a 1000 lbs bomb load
- practical maximum combat radius of 200 miles i.e. 30% more than the one you give in the game ... corresponding to 6 (or 7 hexes); still a crap but a bit more dangerous for the IJN.


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Bladerunner
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PostPosted: Mon 29 Jan - 23:10 (2018)    Post subject: TBD Range Revision Reply with quote

In fact, the best tale are from the battle Of the Coral Sea
According to the first team book, on May 8, TF17 launched an airstrike including TBD against the Japanese Combined Fleet located at 175 miles
In fact, the fleet were separated by 210 miles (enough to deter the admiral from sending the torpedo bombers)
but hopefully both were steaming full speed to each other reducing the distance to 170 miles


Therefore, let's assume TBD endurance is 180 miles = 12 hexes


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larsenjp
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PostPosted: Mon 29 Jan - 23:32 (2018)    Post subject: TBD Range Revision Reply with quote

Bladerunner wrote:
In fact, the best tale are from the battle Of the Coral Sea
According to the first team book, on May 8, TF17 launched an airstrike including TBD against the Japanese Combined Fleet located at 175 miles
In fact, the fleet were separated by 210 miles (enough to deter the admiral from sending the torpedo bombers)
but hopefully both were steaming full speed to each other reducing the distance to 170 miles


Therefore, let's assume TBD endurance is 180 miles = 12 hexes


That's fine to me Okay
Still much better than what we have currently and most probably quite realistic.


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USS Archerfish
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PostPosted: Tue 30 Jan - 02:57 (2018)    Post subject: TBD Range Revision Reply with quote

Bladerunner wrote:
In fact, the best tale are from the battle Of the Coral Sea
According to the first team book, on May 8, TF17 launched an airstrike including TBD against the Japanese Combined Fleet located at 175 miles
In fact, the fleet were separated by 210 miles (enough to deter the admiral from sending the torpedo bombers)
but hopefully both were steaming full speed to each other reducing the distance to 170 miles


Therefore, let's assume TBD endurance is 180 miles = 12 hexes




While I understand you reduced range to compensate for speed the 8 range really did put the US at a big disadvantage. I know the TBD was a obsolete when the war started and bad torpedoes were no help either.  Despite that it did have some success. 


Is the 12 hex range for torpedoes, bombs or both?  If that torpedo range I’m happy with that.


If memory serves me correct I think the battle of Midway occurred at about 175 miles apart too.  


On a side note.  Did Japan ever use their aircraft range to their advantage?  I’m not sure they did since they used CA plane scouts to do most of their primary searches. 


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Bladerunner
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PostPosted: Tue 30 Jan - 10:17 (2018)    Post subject: TBD Range Revision Reply with quote

USS Archerfish wrote:
Bladerunner wrote:




On a side note.  Did Japan ever use their aircraft range to their advantage?  I’m not sure they did since they used CA plane scouts to do most of their primary searches. 



They should have done it.
Their bombers had a slightly better range
However it seems that the exact location of the enemy fleet was always difficult to get and admires wanted to ensure that airplanes would not lack of fuel and come back earlier for a second strike. So the CV was trying to close the distance anyway


The range advantage was used in 1944 where the IJN could strike first while the US had not even detected the Japanese fleet !
Of course, the numbers and the CAP/AA quality saved the day for the Allies


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PostPosted: Sat 3 Feb - 01:48 (2018)    Post subject: TBD Range Revision Reply with quote

Many factors involved in this, not just performance figures, these include,


Up to and inc Midway, USN full attacks, not spontaneous attacks, by scouts were limited by the poor range and performance of the Devastator.


 Throughout ‘42 USN attacks were limited by the relatively poor range of the USN fighters.


Poor coordination of attacking USN forces wasted much fuel over carriers, and on the flight out because the Devestator was so slow.


It’s a mystery why the IJN didn’t use their 50? mile better attacking radius - never seen any comment on this in any book.
Why build light planes and then not use their benefits!?


So as you say BR, 180 miles is the pragmatic, and actual, figure that crops up in all the texts


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PostPosted: Today at 02:13 (2018)    Post subject: TBD Range Revision

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